Slagle you kill me,
You post as though you have no liberal thoughts what so ever. When if fact you have just as many and the people you are so quick to call libtards. Come on buddy your better than that, do you feel better attacking those who dont think the exact way you do? do you feel you will lose readers by not acting like a right wing wacko. Speaking of leaving things alone, lets talk about a much bigger issue, for Christ sakes if you dont want to say one nation under god then just dont say that part. How about all the talk about Your favorite leaders nomination for the Suprem Court over turning Roe vs Wade, surly you belive in a womans right to choose.........wait dont answere that you may loose some of your conservite readers.......(but I know the answere) dont get me wrong I agree with most of what you say, but not all of it. Ask your self what would have a bigger impact on the nation, taking those lines out of the pledge or Bush getting his nominee in the Suprem Court? I think you know the answere. As for changing things, a Civilization that dose not change is going to fail. Please forgive any spelling errors it's 1 am and I'm tired.

defender1 (waiting for the shit storm that is about to hit him :) )

OK, first let's clarify the difference between you and me. I am a Liberal Conservative meaning that the bulk of my political and moral beliefs are conservative in nature though on some subjects I tend to agree with the Liberals. You my friend are a Conservative Liberal meaning that the bulk of your political beliefs best align with the liberal point of view though you do fall in line with the conservatives on some issues. Also, a few definitions as I see them. LibTard = the extreme left. Right Wing Whacko = the extreme right. You are no LibTard and I am no Right Wing Whacko. (Just getting that out of the way for the readers who don't know you and me personally).

Now for the pledge.. Leave it the hell alone. I agree that any society has to evolve or it will die. However, we (Americans) take it to the extreme. We can't leave anything alone. We have little to no traditions and our heritage is borrowed. In today's world it has become fashionable to say, "I am a (Fill in the blank)-American." Not, me I am just a plain old ordinary American. Stick me and I bleed red, white and blue. I know that several generations ago, my family came from Germany, but none of those German-Americans are even alive today. I don't celebrate German holidays. I hold near and dear those things we have that are uniquely American such as Independence Day. I say if people don't want to say Under God, then just omit it or don't say anything at all while reciting the pledge. It should be law that every school day is started with the pledge of allegiance, the pledge to our way of life. I am simply saying that we need to have some things in this country that are sacred, accepted and left alone. We shouldn't have to change things because someone from a foreign land is offended. If they don't like it they can go back to whatever substandard third world country they came from. Take out the words, leave them in. It doesn't change the intent of the pledge to our great nation; it just pleases those people who can only be pleased by screwing with things. What's next removing references to God in all of our other National Documents? Its there, why don't we destroy the intent of those while we are at it? Like I said, in the post, the Pre-1954 pledge didn't contain the words anyway; it probably never should have been changed in the first place. My point is leave what little heritage we have alone. Change laws, change regulations, but don't fuck with our history.

It's like our Air Force, of all the branches of service we are the least proud. The other services are as old as our country and many of their traditions ignite flames of esprit-de-corps. We aren't even 60 years old as a service and we have had more uniforms, "traditions" and expectations than the other services combined. The Navy still has sea going traditions that date back to maritime life before the U.S. was even discovered. The Army and Marine Corps still conduct many ceremonies just as they did over 200 years ago.

Our AF is just another similar example of the current trend in politics. Some things should be sacred.

SlagleRock Out!

I wont even beging to get into it with you because I personally belive you "flip flop" more then John Kerry and yes I voted for him. I really belive your "politcal views" have alot to do with who your talking to at the time. But dont tell me if I stick you, you bleed Red White and Blue, let us not forget your the same guy that told me you think any forigner who has been living here for xx amount of years should be able to run for president. Give me a break, thanks also for not addressing my other main topic, but then I guess thats the Roberts thing to do, be asked a question and just not answere it.

TrachtRock out!

"Slagle you kill me, You post as though you have no liberal thoughts what so ever."

OK, first perhaps you missed the intent of this post. I said, "Don't fuck with our history" in my previous comment. That was also, clearly the intent of the post. I was not saying that Under God had to be there (Conservative view) nor was I saying it has to be removed (Liberal view). I do in fact post on both sides of the center line.

In fact if you look at my first post, Who is SlagleRock? you will see that I clearly advertise the fact that I have both Conservative and Liberal views. I admit that I do tend to post more towards the conservative, but I believe that is partially because most of my conservative views are my patriotic views. I have centered my site around the military and politics. I do tend from time to time to post something that is humorous or at the request of a friend or reader.

Second, to compare me to John Kerry in any way shape or form would be as low as me calling your Mother a cum guzzling gutter slut. I simply would never disrespect you or your Mother in that way.

If you take the time to read all of my posts you will see that I never flip-flop. If I state my opinion on one particular belief, law, incident or situation you will see that my point of view doesn't change. To say simply because I don't align all of my views with one particular party I am a flip-flopper would be as rediculous as passing a law that only allows a person to vote for people of one particular party.

I am open minded. In fact I believe that in many ways my mindset is the kind that this nation needs. We need to be able to balance the conservative and traditional with the open minded ability to reform those things that need it.

As for your remarks on Bush's latest supreme court nomination...

I think that abortion is a woman's right. As long as we have the technology to do the procedure safely I believe it should be the parent's choice. I also believe that if a person chooses to do this they will have to live with their actions and depending on their beliefs they will have to settle with their maker (whomever that may be, God, Allah, Buddah, etc.). I also think that any attempts to go back and forth on the subject of abortion will simply further divide our nation. I believe it is a womans right.

I am not sure exactly what the point was in trying to fire me up, but you failed. All you have shown me is that you don't read nearly enough of my posts or know me nearly as well as I thought.

Oh, and another thing, lets be original and not steal my material...

SLAGLEROCK OUT!

Again you win, because there is no point to these conversations with you in person or online, I'm sure you made great points but I would not really know becuase I stopped reading at the John Kerry comment, yes I'm sure its horrible for someone who bleeds RED WHITE AND BLUE to be compared to a WAR HERO. I know he didnt really do all that stuff and he wrote his own medle packages, blah blah blah, I will just stop and cut my losses now, you dont have to respond to this because I'm done with these post and your web page.

Defend1 done.

First, to all of my readers if the bantering between Defender1 and myself sounds a bit like two brothers fighting, that is just about right!

Defender1 is one of, if not my best friend here in Washington. He is clearly in the top two for friends here on the Left coast, he is a great cop, a good father and a truly great friend.

Defender1,

I am not sure what I did in the first place to fire you up so much. I am not sure what this post may have done to fire you up. I certainly respect your opinion and I appreciate the links and news ideas you have pointed out in the past. The beauty of this nation is its freedom and that fact that you and I can have differing opinions and still be the best of friends.

I hope you'll be back

SlagleRock Out!

Slagelrock, I couldn't agree with you more that the Pledge should be left alone. Anyone who disagrees with the "under God" part should be free to skip those two words, but no Calfornia whacko should have the power to tell the rest of us that they don't belong there.

Don't waste your time trying to argue with Kerry fan, any time, any place. They've already proven they aren't paying attention and there's no point in trying to reason with them.

On a somewhat lighter but related note you might enjoy my post at
http://smalltownveteran.typepad.com/posts/2005/09/declaration_dec.html

I think you both need to stop the petty bickering and realize that this country was founded by colonists that left bloody old England to establish a colony where they didn't have to worship a version of religion establised by the state under King George, the Church of England. The founders took this into consideration when writing the United States Constitution as shown by the very first amendment made to that document.

Amendment I states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." No where in the United States constitution are there any references to the term "Separation of Church and State" .
As for the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals I feel they have violated the first amendment by "abridging the freedom of speech" when U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton adjudicated against the word God.

For those Libtards out ther that still believe the Separation of Church and State clause exists in the U.S. Constitution, it does exist in their hallowed Constitution under Article 52 [Religion]

(1) Citizens of the USSR are guaranteed freedom of conscience, that is, the right to profess or not to profess any religion, and to conduct religious worship or atheistic propaganda. Incitement of hostility or hatred on religious grounds is prohibited.
(2) In the USSR, the church is separated from the state, and the school from the church.

Separation of Church and State are the Marxist tenets of the athiest beliefs of Communism.

The pledge of allegiance in no way establishes a religion, local or state, but the liberals want to toss over 200 years of history and heritage and yield to the lowest common denominator, an athiest, by subverting the U.S. Constitution through legislation from the bench.

I agree with you SlagleRock that the Pledge of Allegiance should be left alone, no one is forcing anyone to say the words "under God", it's voluntary.

Enjoy what religious freedom you have now because you can bet your sweet asses if the Muslims take us over they will establish a state religion.

Defender1, I've known Rob since he was 6 months old, and his father for over 40 years.
We disagree on many things,some vehemently, some at least in degree, but, like Rob,I don't really understand what set you off on this post.

Rob is a true independant thinker, he sees no dichotomy in holding a "liberal" view on one issue and a "conservative" view on another, that doesn't make him a flip-flopper at all. I respect that he can do so. I have some "liberal" stances on some issues as well, even though most of the Left would consider 99% of my views as being "rightwingnut."

I can see both his points on the Pledge. I pretty much agree wih him. Personally, I don't think it's an affirmation of any particular religion, and while I can see the reasoning of the person bringing the suit, I feel that he's ignoring the fact that he is in the small minority, and that there is nothing in the Pledge saying "one nation under God" that leads to any harm to his views, to him personally, or to others of his view.
He can mouth the words without it affecting his own beliefs in any way; "God" is the general term for a higher being, and if he doesn't believe one exists; the words become meaningless anyway.

Rob is right, this country is too quick to discount tradition, it's both a weakness and a strength. We need to maintain tradions to build a common culture, but be willing to not let traition to become restricting just for tradition's sake.

As an emigre that CHOSE to become an American, I find it a pity that most Americans of the last two generations don't know much about their own history, and this is because we're all too willing to change a view/tradition so as not to offend a minicule portion of the citizenry.

As to Rob "waffleing", you really need to read his site more often, he's always been consistent in his views, and to compare him with a person that many (as I do, and I think Rob, to a lesser degree does) would consider a traitor, and one that is a "waffler" on the strength of his public statements IS an insult. If you are as good a friend of Rob's as he states, you would be aware of his view and refrain from such an incendiary (and patently false)comparison.
I can respect that you have a different opinion of Kerry, you can believe or not believe what you want, but return that same repsect to those of us that just may have looked into the evidence and reached a different conclusion than yours. It's a two way street.

I believe that Rob WOULD bleed Red White and Blue; his father would too, even though he is FAR more liberal than either of us (and probably YOU too!). We argue like cats and dogs about almost everything, but at the end of a "discussion" we still have a final brew and part as good a friends as we've been all these many years, because we can respect each other enough to "agree to disagree" without personal attacks/insults....well, at least in public. :)

When a majority of the US votes to change the
Pledge to take out the phrase "Under God" then
and only then should that phrase be taken out.
I only wish I don't live long enough to see that
day. ( and I would really like to have a long
happy life...)

Of course I'll be back, I have read all your post and as usual you all bring up very good points and make great arguments. No that I think about it I'm not sure what got me so fired up either. Rob and I are good friends and I would never let that change. Also I am a "dirty Kerry fan" so I have the right to "flip flop" and change my mind and oppinions. Ha HA, I hope I didnt make anyone to mad and I hope I can come back, not with open arms though because I'm not that liberal. LOL

Defender1

for Christ sakes if you dont want to say one nation under god then just dont say that part.

Maybe you should say this to Newdow?? He's the one trying to butcher the Pledge of Allegiance.

I know of no school district in the United States that actually requires every student to recite the full text, or any of it at all. All that is required is that he stand respectfully while others do.

With all the liberal indoctrination that's going on in our schools today, why can't we conservatives have our fifteen seconds every morning?

The First Amendment does NOT imply in any way that people may not use religious words in public places. Go read it if you don't believe me. In fact, the practice advocated by Newdow is more likely to infringe on the student's right to free practice than it is to violate the Establishment Clause. Of course, guys like Newdow don't want you to know that.

RWR

I'd just like to set the record straight.I am much more liberal than my son.I voted for John Kerry and have no regrets for doing so.I am more conservative than many would believe.I am not a fan of big government but at the same time believe that we must take care of our down trodden,sick and elderly.If that that makes me to liberal for you people,then it is to damn bad.Maybe I am actually an compassionate conservative.

AS for saying "under God" when I recite the Pledge of Allegiance,I will continue to do so and anyone that has a problem with that can KISS MY ASS!!!

I served my country proudly,in what I consider one of the most disgraceful periods in our countrys history.The same as my son is doing now.Yes,I do bleed red,white and blue.I will fly my flag until the day I die.

I am also very proud of all of my conservative and liberal friends,as long as they have the balls to state their opinions.Had previous generations agreed on all issues or if they had just remained silent,this would not have evolved into the great nation that it is today.We will get pissed at each other often but we will walk away stronger and better friends.

May God bless you all and God bless the U.S.A.

Rob, love you always and keep up the great posts.

SSgt (Select) Slagle, signing off